Mathematics

History, Economics, and Time Reversal

Shahn Majid

Yikes.

First off, congratulations America! Electing the first black US president has to be significant and already puts Obama into the history books, whatever economic and other problems may loom worryingly in the future. Certainly his work will be cut out for him given the falls in the stock market and some of the dire predictions going forward.

Maybe in such times of history, change and future uncertainty, it is appropriate to reflect, then, what exactly do we mean by past, present and future? What is the cutting edge of modern physics telling us about these important concepts?

So far in these blogs I have focussed on hard science verifiable by experiment. But it is also part of the background to my multiauthored volume On Space and Time that to proceed further with fundamental science may need revolutionary new ideas for which science is still grasping. So this week we are going to let our hair down and extrapolate from what is understood into what is definitely, well, speculative.

Incidentally, I did run these ideas here past a BBC producer for Horizon a few years ago when he called me asking about the possibility of time travel, and obviously I was not controversial enough as he never called me back.

What I propose, as a motion for debate, is:

The direction of time is a spontaneously broken symmetry, in the same way as which side of the road to drive on is a spontaneously broken symmetry.

Please, just pick a side.

Let me explain the analogy first. For the sake of argument, let’s say that either driving on the left or driving on the right is equally good. At some point, with enough drivers crowding the road, you have to break the symmetry and decide somewhat arbitrarily (‘spontaneously’) on one side or the other. But once enough of you have bought right handed cars and started driving them, you are pretty much locked into that choice in your region.

Now for the arrow of time. This is not controversial at a subatomic level and at the level of fundamental equations of physics; there is a symmetry between, say, t and -t in the eqations i.e. between increasing and decreasing time. For example, the relativistic wave equation that governs the simplest particles involves (d/dt)2 which does not change under such a change of variables. In physics the actual symmetry is PCT — it means left-right reversal (“parity”), particle-antiparticle interchange (“charge conjugation”) and time-reversal. This is what led the legendary physicist Richard Feynman once to say that in his view a positron (an anti-electron) is just an electron traveling backwards in time.

So, you could view physics with a reversed arrow of time relative to everyone else (looking backwards so what you call time increasing corresponds to everyone else’s time decreasing) and this would be OK with subatomic physics as long as you also flip particles with antiparticles and left with right. The equations would not know, it would be a matter of convention and your conventions would be related to usual ones by these flips.

What is controversial is extending this to macroscopic physics. Let’s try, and you will see why. I am saying that there is a symmetry between, say, being a historian and being an economist (by which I mean broadly predicting the future in similar terms to modern historians, not just the stock market but governments, social trends etc.). Both take the world as it is today and extrapolate — backwards or forwards according to models of how the world works, to the past or future respectively. So if there was some other part of the Universe (another ‘region’ in the driving analogy) where people used the reversed convention on the arrow of time, their historians would be our economists in the sense above. Let’s call this, for the sake of discussion, time-reversed world, or TR world. It need not be an actual other world but just a reversed world-view.

This is not a problem with reversible classical mechanical models of evolution of the world. It is also not a problem for (unitary) evolution of the quantum state in quantum theory but there might be problems when you make quantum measurements. In quantum theory when you measure something the quantum state ‘collapses’ to the result of the measurement; information about the range of possibilities and their probabilities prior to measurement is lost. I think this is a red herring. Historians make use of probabilistic models just as well as economists, i.e. saying:

Given what we know now, its 99% certain that Caesar visited Gaul in the year 56 BCE.

Vercingetorix surrenders to Caesar

Vercingetorix surrenders to Caesar

That sort of thing. Notice that the ‘arrow of time’ in the use of the probability here is past-pointing.

From a physicists point of view the main objection is the second law of thermodynamics, that entropy always increases. My view, however, is that this is ultimately not actually a fundamental law of nature. Rather, I think of it as a tautology about the way that we define and use probability. Thus, if you view probability as quantifying what will happen given what you know now, then you already built in an arrow of time into the very notion of probability and into probabilisitic concepts such as entropy. If, as just discussed, you reverse your usage then you will also be using these terms differently. A historian’s state of knowledge gets more and more uncertain as you go further back in time.

The real problem is that the arrow of time is so built into everything we do the moment that we communicate and share information — into the very concepts that we use — that tracing through all of the details of the reversed interpretation, fleshing out the dictionary between our usual way of speaking and the reversed way, is an immense and almost unimaginable task. It would be akin to creating a new and unfamilar langauge and way of looking at the world, but would be harder because every bit of science and not just every day life has to go into the dictionary. It is certainly much harder than converting your driving mentality from left to right as you go from the UK to the US.

The deepest part of the problem here is, well, how we speak about the notion of reality itself. Clearly, the past is somehow real, fixed, while the future is not yet written. Isn’t this where the historians-economists symmetry surely fails? Just because historians don’t know the past for certain does not mean that the past does not absolutely exist. I agree with that statement. But the thing is that the equations of physics are generally a-temporal, i.e. one looks down on the whole spacetime continuum past and future so from that perspective the future is also ‘real’. Free will and such matters are not really understood in physics, although some would say that they should be one day (one can point at the ‘measurement problem’ in quantum theory as providing a hint). This is a point that John Polkinghorne makes in his section of On Space and Time, that we do not yet have but do need a ‘theory of time unfolding’. Until then, the best we can say is that what for us is the actual past would for the people of TR world be the uncertain future, while what for us is uncertain would be fixed for them even if their knowledge of it to their historians was as murky as to our economists. It is ultimately a philosophical point as to what ‘exists’ really means.

To see some of the problems for scientists to define this ‘present’ where the solid past becomes the uncertain future, consider that someone zooming past you at high velocity experiences a different ‘now’ than you do. A standard illustration of this is the ‘pole in the barn’ paradox. Perhaps the reader will know that fast moving objects also shrink (this is called Lorentz contraction). So imagine a runner with a 20 foot pole going so fast that it appears to us as 10ft. Imagine is passes through a barn that is 19ft long and has doors at each end, and when the pole is inside we briefly shut both the doors. So the pole is momentarily enclosed in the barn. But from the point of view of the person running with the pole, the pole is not moving, so it is 20ft long and the barn is zooming towards them and is shrunk to 9.5ft. Clearly, the pole can at no instant fit entirely in the barn! The only way out is that what appears to us on the ground as closing the doors simultaneously appears from the point of view of the person moving with the pole as first one door closing for an instant and then the other door closing for another instant. The notion of ‘now’ is therefore ill defined. This is an instance of Einstein’s Special Relativity in action and one of the surprises is that it does not matter that much to physics; one can still have a notion of cause and effect without a universally agreed ‘now.’

So, can we have time travel? Over the years, there have been several fictional works about meeting someone traveling backwards relative to us. The Time Traveler’s Wife by Audrey Niffenegger is a recent one, while earlier efforts included stories by John Wyndham and by Brian Aldiss. I have not read any of these myself but I suppose that the traveler or the traveler’s consciousness travels back in jumps but is then aligned with our own arrow of time moving forward before the next jump. This is obviously wrong. What would it be like to truly meet someone from TR world? In view of what we have said above it would be much more serious even than recording what they said and playing it backwards. Our very notions of what it was for them or us to be would be different and need to be part of the dictionary.

But I can show you how it might work at the subatomic level.

Reading the figure from the bottom with time going ‘up’, we have at A a very high energy photon (a gamma ray) turning into an electron-positron pair (the paths marked e_- and e_+ respectively). These propagate and, perhaps in an electromagnetic field depicted by interacting with more photons, bend round and happen to recombine back into a gamma ray. It could happen, with low probability. In TR world the same series of events would be read backwards from the top of the page and I’ve done the diagram in such a way that they would see the same thing, just with the roles of electron and positron swapped. But a third way, remembering what Feynman said, would be to say that an electron appeared out of no-where at A, absorbing a photon of light, travelled to the upper part of the diagram and then disappeared in a flash of light at B, to travel back in time to the bottom of the diagram where it appeared at A as the electron we started with.

How to extend such subatomic ideas to macroscopic physics remains a mystery. We got a glimpse of how it might work thinking about history v economics, but fundamental gaps remain. But what I find fascinating is that some of it could be viable scientific research, i.e. proceeding in an incremental manner from the subatomic end up through the different layers of science, if only to see exactly where the symmetry goes wrong. I have a hunch that we would learn a lot about ourselves in the process.

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Discussion

7 comments for “History, Economics, and Time Reversal”

  1. dear majid,

    Wheeler once remarked that if there were only a few chunks of matter in the universe, the future would, in reality, affect the past…, Einstein also believed that the one-way flow of events that is observed is of statistical origin.
    Several concepts still require serious clarification;e.g,Maxwell equations predict that light should travel in a straight line and its found to fall towards a star. The role of observers, being outside the system in quantum measurement, whilst being inside when looking at the universe. Also depending on their state of motion, they may reach different results of energy in vacum space. It is just possible( I am only speculating), that eventaully gravity’s advanced waves (coming from the future) may have the solution to the quantum measurement problem( the collapse of wave function).

    Posted by saad ghalib | November 23, 2008, 9:04 am
  2. Hi Saad,

    Thanks for the comment. I am glad to hear about Einstein and Wheeler, definitely adds weight! I think, however, that to actually do the reversal requires much more of `rearrangement of everything’ than anyone is willing to contemplate, because it requires greater thought about OUR role in establishing what is present. This is also the key, in my opinion to the measurement problem and you make an interesting point about observers inside and outside the system (I am not sure I am with you on gravitational waves from the future and collapsing wave functions causing collapsing of the wave function, however). One point I should make is that when one takes a causal view of time as dictated by Relativity, light does not take any time to fall into the star, in its own rest frame as it were it takes no time at all. Its in our frame of the star that it takes time. The same is true for a person falling into a black hole, as you would know, from our perspective they never actually fall in but hover for ever on the horizon, but in their frame they get crushed to death in a finite time. In my chapter of the book I compare this with Schoedingers cat (dead or alive) paradox, I think there are parallels.

    Posted by Shahn Majid | November 27, 2008, 5:42 am
  3. As a casual reader of this blog, your thoughts encourage me to think beyond the daily grind of making a living and trying to keep my family fed, happy, and unworried about financial stability as they attend to their lives.

    The mystery of time, to me, is this: Am I an outside observation or an enfolded observation in the fabric of space/time? From a purely hopeful point of view, I am hoping I am an enfolded observation. In this vein, I try– unsuccessfully often, to be honest at least with myself– to adhere to a no-harm-to-others rule in my life with the belief that if I am wrong, then it doesn’t matter at all, and if I am right, then I will be aware “somewhen/somewhere” of all the actions of my life and their connection to everything and everybody around me and happy that I avoided from time to time doing harm myself by harming others.

    Now, I think I will try to stay on the right side of the road–whatever that is!

    Posted by JWhite | December 1, 2008, 6:54 am
  4. Hi Shahn
    Many thanks. I read your comment with interest. Thinking long-term, I am not sure if Einsteins General Relativity will stand the test of time . He certianly never believed this himself. as you know, his theory is built on the concept of field,this can be replaced by Standing Waves of Matter with areas of high probability (amplitude squared) representig where the particle might be when one set-up an experiment to do so.The point Iam trying to make is that ,A sum-over-histories wave type guiding the particle may replace the field concept,these waves allow particles to go forward and backward in time. An accelerating detector in empty space should pick-up energy as it creates an area of horizon behind it, so in a way, there is a natural connection between inertial force and quantum of energy. The catch is that Quantum systems are non-local (causality is not preserved within the same light cone),whilst space-time field is local ,and so far I have not seen a convincing evidence to why that is. may be as john Bell once suggested that we should go back to the concept of Ether. Alternatively, we have to assume that all nature is super-deterministic. I think eventually, space/time will be seen as a big distraction. Einstien never believed that material objects exsist in “space” but rather spatially extended in space.may be those spatial extensions are non-local.

    Posted by saad ghalib | December 1, 2008, 4:39 pm
  5. Hi JWhite,

    thanks for your fun comment! I think the question of are you an outside observation or an enfolded observation is a deep one. I talk about it (I think) in my chapter of On Space and Time and have a take on it which I call `relative realism’. I am sure I will get to it in the blogs at some point. It also gives an angle to respect of others.

    Hi Saad,

    Clearly much to think about. My suggestion: take some of your ideas and try to develop some baby models, complete with equations, illustrating them. I’m not sure I see the difference between existing in `space’ and `spatially extended in space’.

    But your comment brings to my mind an old question I like to pose: exactly WHERE are YOU? I mean to the nearest centimetre? If `you’ is located somewhere in the middle of your head. But you will agree that where you are exactly is
    a but fuzzy with an error of about 10cm. OK? So WHEN exactly are you? Same problem. Keeping in mind that nerves signals
    take time to travel, when you are is a bit fuzzy with an error of about 1/10 of a second perhaps depending on the complexity of the information that you consider `now’. Of course, there is fairly accurate agreed now, but what exactly is YOUR relationship to it?

    I thought about this many years ago after reading the book by J.W. Dunne `An experiment with time’ where he describes his experience of premonitions, although without a theory. I am not sure if it really works, but since most things in biology are governed by gaussian (or some other) probability distributions, while most of you is in the centre of your perceived time, some parts of you will be at the extremes of the distribution, eg some will be ahead of the centre. This does not explain actual predictions but could explain the perception of a prediction, as a reverse deja vu. Nowdays this kind of timeshift technology is built into DVD players to take out ads and so forth. Well, just some idle thoughts.

    Posted by Shahn Majid | December 2, 2008, 12:44 pm
  6. Hi shahn,
    Once again many thanks for the comment.Perhaps, I should explain the concept of matter being spatially extended. Einstein said that objects are spatially extended as fields. In this way the concept of empty space loses its meaning. He also said; Time,space and gravitation has no separate existence from matter.
    As to your comment on WHERE and WHEN exactly an observer is, will inadvertently link’s physical measurement to the concept of information and human consciousness.Being an Old age psychiatrist( I read physics as a hobby) increasingly more evidence support’s the hypothesis that the sub-conscious mind make decisions prior to us being fully aware of it.So in reality one should be more worried about the sub-conscious rather than the conscious mind when it comes to schrodiners cat paradox. I personally do not believe that consciousness should be part of physical measurement. At least not yet.I think the brain sees the future before it has the chance to construct its past.
    One other comment I would like to make is that if only one single electron exsits in the universe would it still have charge, spin and momentum? I doubt that very much. Therefore, it makes more sense if one consider particles as a secondary concept that is derived from primary concepts like charge, spin, momentum…etc, and that those particular(primary) concepts are of statistical nature rather than the particles themselves.

    Posted by saad ghalib | December 5, 2008, 8:15 pm
  7. Hi. I just browsed the internet for a book by Robert Coles, at Princeton university website and came across the Cambridge blog list. So, I began reading some posts on there and your in particular caught my attention.
    This is by the way an amazing theoretical explicative. theoretical points that are rightly scientific and spurt a great inquiry into the concepts which you have presented/shared here.

    Below is what I have to offer having read some of your post titled: History, Economics, and Time Reversal

    Time, no matter how simply or abstractly is used as a gauge for summing up the multiple layered realities – symbolic or physical – of humanity, ultimately throws another curve ball in. Translated existence of humans, with the passage of time ( being a measure, a unit of analysis for their actions, words, thoughts and feelings lead to the conclusion that the instantaneousness of some physical laws, ironically, superimpose a sense of immortality, at least on the behaviors and their consequences as exerted by able living bodies called human beings.

    All the rationalities of customs, values, conscientious emotions about right and wrong, sadly become secondary or even unimportant due to the rush of here and now, the perceived necessity of fitting in the moment, lest losing the opportunities to be, whatever that might mean for anyone and that differs for everyone, subjectively and even objectively, at times. The universality of human experiences in terms of time as a quantifier of their lives lived, well lived or poorly lived carve an imposition of sorts if you will, of morbid, dismal and bleak future or agreeable and content future. The continuum of time, in and of itself for everyone, is such a lengthy span of being, that condensing life to all proper affairs and behaviors, harmless and safe memories, in the physical realities of life and living, the times in which it is lived or being lived, may not be possible for all people.

    The issue seems to be, as one perspective, one which demands an answer to this query: how to bring the paradigm of timeliness, timelessness, the existence of time as one dimension of life, to account for the substance of what goes on in the life-span of those species affected by time – age, maturation, development, evolution, involution and so forth are all processes, that are substantial and consequential in many direct and indirect ways upon life.

    More socially befitting comprehension can be extracted when we can scale the concept of time reversed, as hind sight and retrospection to make peace with time past and with a certain degree of anticipation or predictive validity, draw a time-table for time to come.

    Since, I am not a physicist, it will be nice to hear your thoughts in relative parsimony and physical calculations and terms that can be easily understood.

    Thanks,
    Saira

    Posted by saira | December 24, 2008, 9:38 pm

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